Thursday, July 27, 2006

So, who's war is it anyway?

I read an interesting article in one of our leading newspaper (it was actually on paper, lol, so no link). The interviews yet one more expert on the war and he said something interesting. He said the current match between Israel and the Hezbulla is like this football match with two teams playing but many spectators watching. He referred to the current crisis as an episode in an ongoing fight between fundamental Islamists and the Western world. He mentioned that the outcome will be crucial for many other countries and organizations, including Hammas, Iran and Al Qaeida, as well as radical Muslims in Europe.

This made me think, how this fight we're fighting now isn't just for Israel. Don't mean this to sound too vehement, but it could influence people the world over. I can see several circles here, starting with the sane Muslims of our region (people out there who don't want to live under an ultra religious regime). Next in line would be Europe. Can you imagine the next riots in France if the Hezbulla is perceived as victorious? Can you hear the words of the Imams all over Europe, drawing young Muslims in and telling them that the path of armed resistance has been rewarded by their God?

In this light, I find it hard to understand the European position in this crisis. Sympathy to the inocent victims is one thing. I actually share that. My heart hurts for the children and for the inoncent civilians caught in the line of fire. However, giving in to the Hezbulla's demands and pressuring Israel to stop before Hezbulla is defeated seems to be not in the best interest of Europe. Can't they see that this will end not only with more people hurt in our region, but also in building up radical Islam all over the world, something that should concern Europeans more than anyone else.

19 comments:

Vincent said...

During most wars, the stance of foreign countries is most likely to be "Your shit is your shit, my shit is my shit". That is as long as your conflict isn't affecting me, you can kill each other, I don't care, I have other shit to deal within my country.
Does your country have something we really need (like oil, natural gas)? No (see: Balkans, Kosovo, Tchtchenia, Israel), then we don't give a fuck.
On the other hand if either Israel or Lebanon had something europe/USA cared for, you could hope for some help, but as it seems you don't we'll just simulate to try to help until the issue have settled by itself.

Not trying to be negative or cynical but that's how foreign politics work anyway...

Dio said...

vincent, pardon me, but you don't really seem to grasp what's going on here. the middle east conflict does have a deep impact on the entire world, including europe. or did you forget about the london bombings?

israelimom, as a swiss european i tend to take a neutral standpoint...as far as i can judge there is at least as much aggression coming from israel in this conflict as from the other side. as many times before, the israeli troops are acting in a ruthless manner, the killings of the UN staff is only the most recent example. "winning" this war and "eradicating" hezbullah will neither solve israel's nor the world's problems. on the opposite. al-kaida has already announced new terror attacks. the only solution is to STOP the war because in any war there are only losers among the people. we are all brothers and sisters sharing one world. the solution is in FORGIVING each other for the deeds we've done and joining forces for a new earth!

IsrealiMom said...

Nice to see Europeans posting here :)

dio, I don't know a single Israeli who wouldn't sign for what you said. Nothing would please us more. However, we are dealing with enemies that despise the concepts of peace and prosperity (http://israelimom.blogspot.com/2006/07/shiite-voice.html)

They seek other things. They are religious zealots. And they are shooting at us... How would you suggest that Israel deals with that situation?

Anonymous said...

you are shooting them even more than they shoot you. they say you shooted first. whatever...forgiveness is the root of the solution, on both sides. sorry, but most probably you are heavily influenced by the propaganda in your country and it's understandable you see the conflict from one (your own) side. think about forgiveness...

steve said...

"....think about forgiveness... "

How easily that slips off the tongue. And let me say now, I also advocate forgiveness. There is a time and place for everything. Israel shoots more bullets than Hezbollah because they were attacked. They got tired of the spirl of kidnapping and negotiations, 1,400 Hezbollah and Hamas prisoners for a soldier and an engineer or two. They also tired of having rockets and boms cast over the fence at innocent people. A lebel of terror exists in Israel that I wager few people really understand. It seems to be the damned currency of the area.
There will be a cessation of hostilites, Lord knows hopefully soon. Would anyone care to bet that hezbollah attempts to go right back to where they were, rearming like mad, getting ready for what appears to be their reason for existence: yet more war.
When hezbollah attempts to work within civilized parameters, so will Israel, of this I am 100% certain. When there is a fanatical and unreasonable group, dedicated by its stated aim, time and again, advocating your country's annnihilation, you might consider appearing strong enough for them to think twice about starting all this crap up again. If one cannot see that, then there is little reason to add much here.

Jad Aoun said...

I completely agree with the post. This war will have wide repercussion on the entire world. Today's terrorism can be traced to the bombing of the Marine Barracks in Beirut and the US's decision to pull out.

Lebanese know very well from the civil war that there are no winners when it comes to conflicts. Everyone loses. A cease fire today would be a temporary win for Hezbollah - the major blow would be if they were disarmed by the Lebanese. The anti-Hezbollah politicians are waiting for a cease fire to hammer Hezbollah. Doing it now, in the middle of a war, will give Lebanese the perception that they support Israel and its aggression.

Ryan said...

Hi,
This war is as much about religion as the conflict between the Catholics and Protestants in northern Ireland, which is very little! It is a political conflict over basic resources claimed by two sides, land and water. You are just buying into propaganda like you accuse me of doing. I am not inspired by anything my American government is doing in Iraq or by the Israeli government in Lebanon. It is despair, that is what we are reaping around the world, DESPAIR. Why would anybody in Iraq even want to live? If I were an Iraqi, I would have been driven crazy by now by the bombs and the killings and the violence. It is unbearable to watch; I cannot imagine living through it.
Also, did your government purposefully target the UN? Is Israel using chemical weapons in Lebanon? We did in Fallujah. I invite you to look at my blog and discuss this subject.

Jean said...

@ryan,

I have read many posts lately, comparing Lebanon and Iraq.
Don't fall into this trap, we have nothing in common (I'm lebanese).
The situation is very different than what it was in Irak.
Lebanon has a very complexe society.
Also, I must say, when I see footage on the media about lebanon, I can honestly say that it only reflects one aspect of this society, among many many others.
I accuse the media of not showing the whole picture.

Moreover, like my counterpart said earlier on his comment, the (very) big majority of lebanese would just love to disarm hizbullah(HA).
We are all comdemming the loss of civilian lives, but since the war is already here, it will be no good to stop it without at least achieving the disarmement of HA, or accomplishing a step forward in this direction.
Because otherwise, all the civilians lives lost would have gone to waste, for nothing !

I went to your blog, but for some reason, I keep getting a white rectangle, with no video feed.

I invite you to go to my blog, to get a non-mediated lebanese point of view.
Hope to read you soon,

Jean
--

IsrealiMom said...

Ryan, I never said it was about religion. I said it was a cultural difference. I see Muslims and Jews on both sides of this equations.

I don't think I accused you of anything by the way, why are you getting so defensive? I can assure you the current conflict with the HA has zero to do with land and water, dear. Sorry to disappoint, but I didn't learn these things from "propaganda" of any kind. I was fortunate enough to spend some years within the establishment (a dirty word in some circles, I realize that), and see how things work from within, read the papers, write some of them, attend the meetings and watch how decisions are made. My strategic insight is based on my academic experience, as well as my practical experience from those years. I don't need to read propaganda to form my views :)

catarina said...

This war definitely affects the world, if you don't believe that, you're living on a different planet.

I am hoping no American rests until all the Hezbo terrorists are dead. The Israel Military is doing a great job. God be with them and I wish that UN would stop sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. Let them finish the job. They are making a statement to the rest of the countries in the area. You support, hide or fund these criminals, you can expect the same.

When discussing the UN vis a vis current events in the ME it is difficult to know where to start - so let's start at the top.

Kofi Anon - The SG of the UN is a terrorist facilitator, plain and simple. His comments alleging Israel deliberately bombed/killed UN observers in southern Lebanon was classic Kofi. While he has since made some effort to "moon walk" his way out of the controversy surrounding his remarks, it is an impossible bell to unring. In addition, his address several days ago regarding Israel/Hezbollah contained countless references to Israel and Lebanon, but Hezbollah was virtually left out of the address. How does one overlook the aggressor in a conflict? His hand-wringing over the fighting taking place and his declarations that it must stop; leaving Hezbollah substantially in tact, only tells us that little Kofi would prescribe sewing up a cancer patient while leaving the cancer inside, thus insuring the symptoms of the illness return. Hitler had a name for folks like Kofi Anon in the months leading up to his march into the heart of Western Europe - "Useful Idiots."

As an organization, the UN is worse than feckless; it often works to (deliberately) obstruct any real progress toward eliminating those radical Islamists that cannot be rendered benign through diplomacy. You know, sometimes wars MUST be fought!! What is taking place in Lebanon is one of those times. Placing a time table on Israel to complete the job of dealing with a terrorist group - Hezbollah - is largely the result of pressure from a cowardly Europe and the "diplomacy at any cost" UN. The UN is good at passing out water, food and prophylactics, and not much else. BTW, let's not forget about raping children, but that's another subject for another day.

Now, about those 2000 UN observers in southern Lebanon - what have they been observing?? Apparently not much. It seems they failed to observe and/or report the movement into southern Lebanon of between 13,000 and 18,000 missiles - those currently being used by Hezbollah and landing haphazardly in Israel; you know, the ones filled with ball bearings designed only for the purpose of maiming and killing civilians? They apparently didn't observe the six years of bunker building by Hezbollah preparing the battlefield that took place throughout southern Lebanon either.

The United Nations! HA! This is the body to which the liberals demand that we pay homage and through which we must seek consensus before taking action to ensure our national security??

One final thought. The diplospeak term, "international community". Folks, there is no international community. A community, by definition, consists of entities with shared values and goals. With that frame of reference in mind, go down the roster of those countries in the UN. I rest my case.

Hey Anne ~ just thought this would make you smile
Thousands Support Israel

steve said...

"I am hoping no American rests until all the Hezbo terrorists are dead"

Catarina, I know you realize Americans are terrible at this. Oh, we kill all sorts of folks, about that there is no debate. Just not always the right ones. I spent a misbegotten period of life in Viet Nam and, as I watch us struggle fruitlessly in Iraq when the subjects of our "good war", Afghanistan, watch their nation turn into a red hot Narco State I have to wonder what possesses Americans to believe for a second that our government, especially the current leadership, can get any of this right. So far, we have not even come close. I refer to about 4 decades worth of trying.
Americans are very glib at recommending "bombing them into oblivion", or "killing every last -----------------" (hezbollah, in your case, Iranians and Al Queda in many others. Shit, won't be many people left when we are finished killing all the "-------'s".) fill in the blanks. But, alas, dear, we suck at it, don't we? We are as selective as a nuclear weapon, frankly, believing in the bludgeon now, so much more than the stick and carrot. Bush released the Fascist in us all, I fear, and his handy solutions and cowboy talk have endangered us all in ways which will only be apparent in years, maybe decades to come.
The Israeli's, by and large, know what they are doing. Sure, we can help, as Americans but, with attitudes like yours, maybe we shouldn't. You don't send Jesse James in when you need Gandhi. End of rant. Touchy subject for me.

HappyStill said...

I cannot see any justification for bombing a population off the face of the earth. I do not see how , after all this carnage and the increasing venom of the language used, you people will be able to live together as neighbours. I cannot understand why the US, supported and cheered on by the UK, continues to arm Israel while supposedly trying to engage the sides in peace talks.
I do not understand why the international community is allowing this to happen.
I do not understand why an immediate cease fire is such an appalling concept.
If you genuinely want peace, the best place to start is the absence of war... not by trying to bomb the other side into submission. Ceasefire may not be the whole answer, but it has got to be better than what I watch on the news every night.
I grew up in Ireland during the worst of our little problem. My kids are growing up during a so called peace procees where many ordinary people are still powerless to shape the society they live in. We are so fearful of the other 'side', the 'tribes' still dominate our politics at the expense of progress.
I do not have any power in the so called democratic society that I live in.. why should it be any different for the Lebanese people. And if you, as an Israeli mom, decided that enough was enough, would you have the poser to stop it? And if you couldn't, how can the Lebanese people?
Tonight, while you are in bed, worrying about your kids, there's Lebanese woman, a woman who has done nothing to harm you or yours, doing the same.
And her kids are listening to your bombs dropping and maybe listening to their families dying around them. There are kids separated from their mums because families cannot afford to send everyone away to safety - because as usual, it is the people without money and power and infuence who are left behind.

wadi1957 said...

Quant est ce que vous aller comprendre que Hisbullah n'est pas un mouvement terroriste,ni el Quaida ni Hamas se sont simplements des mouvements islamistes de resistance depourvue de moyens de guerre qui puissent arreter la formidable machine de guerre israilienne soutenu par la plus grande puissance dans le monde et je cite les Etat Unis alors ils utilisent l'arme des pauvres qui est d'abord la fois de la juste cause Palestinienne cette arme se traduit par des sacrifices enormes que representent les martyrs sous formes de bonbes humaines ce n'est pas du terrorisme c'est le desespoir d'un peuple devant un monde ou regne la lois du plus fort.Les Palestiniens sont les vrais proprietaires de cette terre ces Palestiniens ne sont pas tous des musulmans il y'a aussi des Juifs des Chretiens des Druses et si certains trouvent leurs comptes a travers l'occupations seonistes composees de juifs venues du monde entier "Russes Frzncais Italiens Espaggnioleet la liste est longue" je cites les juifs qui ne sont pas d'allieurs tous des Seonistes d'autres ont tout perdue et vives dans des camps de refugies au Liban en Egypte en Jourdanie voila le vrais problemme et la guerre avec le Hisbullah,el Quaida et Hamas n'est que la consequence de cette injustice encore plus grande que celle commis par Hitler pendant la 2 guerre mondiale
je vous demande tous de repondre a cette simple question si vous vivez miserablement dans un camp de refugies et que vous savez que a quelque mille de la c'est votre terre votre histoire est ce que vous aller cesser d'y penser

catarina said...

Hi Steve, you said:
The Israeli's, by and large, know what they are doing. Sure, we can help, as Americans but, with attitudes like yours, maybe we shouldn't. You don't send Jesse James in when you need Gandhi. End of rant. Touchy subject for me.

I hate to be without tact, so I will try my best to get post this without flaming anyone here.

By stating that the Israeli's know what they're doing, by and large and telling me that I have a Jessie James attitude only shows that you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You see, Israel's attitude is to eliminate Hezbollah. Or haven't you heard? My best guess is that you're being brainwashed by liberals.

The only fear I have are real fears, like this one Seatelle Shooting. While you're enlightening yourself, read Hezbollah ~

They have cells here in the US, you know it and I know it. They're just sleeping. Am I scared. No, not yet, because I have been extremely fortunate not to have elected some fool to my government. Lebanon leaders allowed a state within a state to be part of their parliament and unfortunately it is their people that are paying for their mistakes. President Bush didn't do that, nor did Israel.

He certainly didn't instill fear to the majority of anyone. If you're of sound mind, please take another gander at what's happening in Israel. This is not an minute organization. They are funded over 100 million a year from Iran and have had six years to prepare for this war. This war just didn't "happen", they planned it. They knew Israel has had enough, tried her best, but is sick and tired of being sick and tired. GOT THAT? I hope so, because maybe one day you'll understand that no one wants WAR. However; some people are not capable of communicating on the same civil level as perhaps you and I are. These terrorists only know one thing and that's to put an end to western ideologies. They are religious fanatics and will go to any length to achieve their goal.

I am no Jessie James, but you and other's with the cavalier attitude you possess, will get Israel no where and the terrorists everywhere. I suggest you stop drinking the Kool-Aid and wake up.

catarina said...

woody you said When will you understand that Hisbullah is not a terrorist movement, nor is El Quaida, nor Hamas. They are simply poor Islamic movements that have no means to resist against the more powerful Israelian war machines who are supported by non other than the most powerful force, being the States.

I just can't even comment on this because I'm in total shock you would say that. Where do you live, under a rock? How in the world do you get Internet access? Well, if you decide to check back on this blog, maybe you should click on the links I posted for Steve.


While they utilise the poor army weapon, being the Palestenian way, which translates into human sacrifices. It is not terrorism, it is desperation of a nation placing their people against a greater, stronger force (law) in the world.

So, you think that's not terrorism to blow yourself up taking others with you? You just think that's A-OK Right? You're wrong, because these religious zealots want their land back, they got it back and then some, but had to instigate this war.



I state that not all jewish are seonists. Some have lost everything and live amongst the refugie camps in Lebanon and Egypt or Jordania. That is the real problem with this war with Hisbullah, El quaida and Hamas. Isn't this injustice just as grand as what Hitler caused during WWII?

I can't say that. Only someone that lived through the Holocaust can, but of course, who am I kidding, you don't believe there was one do you?


I ask that you all reply to this one question: If you were living in miserably in a refuge camp knowing that just a few miles away lies your land, your heritage, would you be able to stop thinking about it?

I hope that you get back on your meds. There is no need for this war except for Iran utilizing Hezzbollah as their puppet to do their dirty work for them. I do hope Ahmadinejad gets ousted by his own people, because otherwise, if this continues, Iran will get involved, then a much uglier picture will be painted.

IsrealiMom said...

Woody, I was about to ask someone to post a translation into English, but looks like Catarina has done at least some of it.

I can understand the feelings of the poor refugees, but let me get back with a question for you. A very pertinent one, as it happens since you are from Tunisia. My family left Tunisian during the fifties, driven away by local Arabs and having to leave property behind, very similar to what happened to the Palestinians here. They spent their first years in Israel in what was essentially refugee camps, first in tents, then in improvised hosing made of tin. So far, very similar to the Palestinians. They could have been kept in that condition, longing to go back to Tunisia and regain control over their land and houses. They chose not to. Israel chose not to. They slowly but surely progressed and moved into proper housing, finding their way into Israeli society.

I don't expect the Palestinians to forget about the homes and property they left behind. My grandparents never forgot their homes. I do expect them to try and improve their situation now, located in Arab land (many in the Palestinians Authority controlled territory), and work towards a settlement that will compensate them for their loss (as well as compensate the families of Jewish people displaced from their land and homes in Arab land).

steve said...

Catarina opined: "because I have been extremely fortunate not to have elected some fool to my government."

So you did not vote for the frat boy we now have serving?

I notice, you hold liberals in the same general regard you have for Hezbollah. Very productive, dear, you are a star in the debate firmament.

another juicy quote: "I hope so, because maybe one day you'll understand that no one wants WAR."

Maybe you missed something. I have been in war. Neck deep, my dear. I spent many times "getting small", believe me.

As I said earlier, I have no illusions about hezbollah, your so sincere lecture notwithstanding. I resent the abuse of power, in all forms. When you understand that, then you get back.

catarina said...

Steve ~
I'm not going to debate with you due to the fact that you've avoided the most significant points within my posts.

That being said, I don't discount your time that you served in war. I thank you for protecting our country, but I just don't agree with your views at all.

I am an independent, but I do not agree with most liberal ideologies.

Your dig about the President is nothing compared to your true delusions regarding foreign affaris and the present situation between these three entitiies.

Israel must win this war. She has to or do you realize that? No cease fire, nothing.

Hezbollah set them up, it's quite clear. If there is a cease fire, this will only give Hezbollah ample time to regroup with more of the cowards they produce and of course more weapons. To even think that Israel should permit a cease fire for one day, is just not doable for their own existence.

steve said...

Catarina says: "Israel must win this war. She has to or do you realize that? No cease fire, nothing."

While I agree Israel acted as she must, I think "winning" this war is impossible. They know this, I hope you do, as well. What seems possible over here has no contact with reality there. Hezbollah will claim they "won" the war byt merely surviving. Whichever morons are left standing when this is done will crow loud and hard about their bravery and how they made 2 million Israeli's move for a couple weeks. That, to them, is "victory".

As far as liberal "ideaology", I don't see any to speak of. Liberal philosophy is based on reason and the social contract between leading groups and their subjects. It is mutable and adaptable, thus its utterly maddening degree of uncertainty for those who like their philosophies all wrapped up nicely. Typically, it stresses the social aspect of life, with justice and fairness as a goal. As far as foreign policy, wars, business and the rest, liberal philosophy waits in line like all the rest for the best ideas. That part of life is not governed by anything ideological, outside the proviso we make it fair.
I think people confuse Democrats and their party with Liberal Philosophy. Dear, I know as well as you that the current edition of both parties are completely corrupted. Corporations are busy getting rich and running things. You can get your life bar code sewed on or tattoed. Have a nice eternity.