Sunday, August 06, 2006

Highest number of Israeli civilian casualties in a single day so far

At least 10 people killed in a katyusha rocket attack. Why the high number of casualties? well, people are getting fed up of sitting in shelters and being to go outside. Then it's just a question of luck, or lack of. I won't be cynical as to say I hope this pleases the people who were looking for proportionality. It only pleases some people, and that's not unexpected either. To me, this just proves the point I was trying to make before, that at least part of the reason for the discrepancy in the numbers of civilian casualties is due to the fact that the Israeli homefront is better prepared. The shelters, secured rooms and the fact that many civilians just left the area (evacuees, rather than refugees, though that is very much a matter of definition), were all contributing factors in keeping the numbers relatively low. Three weeks into the war, people are beginning to get tired of it all.

Visiting my father yesterday afternoon, in a nearby Kibbutz, I happened to overhear a family that came to stay there. They were from Haifa and were explaining to their hosts why they think it's time for them to go back home. Just missing home, is what it boils down to. There's a limit to how long people are willing to stay away from home with relatives and friends.

I think we may witness more casualties on the Israeli side, now that people are beginning to re-populate the north. Along with that, we'll also see growing pressure on our government to speed up the fighting and "finish the business". It's doable too. Going faster means using more brute force. It means more casualties for our military, and also more civilians hurt on the other side. Then again, given a few more days like today, with so many civilian casualties on the Israeli side, and our government may just be forced towards that direction.

This all relates to the question I see around quite often. How come we're still "not winning", after three weeks of massive fighting. Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again - we are winning. Slowly. Not a dramatic victory. It's not the Six Day War again. This is different, a slow war against sneaky guerilla fighters hiding in trenches. We'll win this one, moving forward one mile at a time. The more we move on, the more rockets we will get launched at Israel. Hezbulla still has many of them and they won't stop launching them until we get them down to their knees. Which we will. It's just going to take some time.

On another note - did you see the doctored picture on Reuters?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html
Incredible that such a leading news agency would let this kind of picture get published. Makes you wonder who their sources really are and how reliable they are.

43 comments:

catarina said...

I was just watching the news and the rocket launcher that killed all those people was just destroyed ~ in Qana ~ yes, isn't that amazing? *sarcasm*

Isn't about time the U.S. take an active military role in this thing? Is it possible that the Islamofacist terrorists going to hate us any worse? I say unleash the cruise missiles on selected targets in Syria and Iran with the forewarning that if they try to retaliate we'll wipe them off the face of the earth. Hezbollah can't be neutralized, it has to be eradicated, and if Syria and Iran want to get involved, let's get it on. I understand the implications of what I'm advocating, but we either draw a line in the sand and quell this rising tide of terrorism and its supporters, or our cities will be next. Israel would do the same for us.

The only way I see Israel winning if there's no Cease fire and they hold these terrorists at bay. No food, no weapons, no nothing that can be disseminated through Iran or Syria.

Yes, that means time, but that's what this war (IMHO) needs. Unless of course we get involved, which we won't, just wishful thinking on my part.

I am an avid artist in PhotoShop and that is the most amateur PS'd picture I've ever witnessed that's actually made it's way onto a reliable news media! That being said, these days, that's an oxymoron when dealing with the MSM within the US!

BTW ~ I just found this:
Reuters admits altering Beirut photo

Reuters withdraws photograph of Beirut after Air Force attack after US blogs, photographers point out 'blatant evidence of manipulation.' Reuters' head of PR says in response, 'Reuters has suspended photographer until investigations are completed into changes made to photograph.' Photographer who sent altered image is same Reuters photographer behind many of images from Qana, which have also been subject of suspicions for being staged.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...286966,00.html

Makes you wonder how many other photos spread around the world are fake.

IsrealiMom said...

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about this photo lol. It's not that hard to make a much better fake, now ;)

I agree that this is going to be a long war and a ceasefire at this point will benefit the Hezbulla... unless it's followed by a good agreement with the Hezbulla actually follows thorugh with - not very likely to happen IMO

CityMama said...

israelimom, I am a professional blogger/writer and mom of two girls ages 2 and 4 in San Francisco, CA, USA. As a mother, my heart is breaking for what is happening to your country and to innocent Lebanese (so many children killed in both countries). I am trying to organize a collaboration of mothers around the world to participate in a blog where we can share our feelings about the situation as mothers and women. If you are interested, could you please contact me at citymama (at) gmail (dot) com. We are just in the preliminary organizing stages. If you aren't interested but know any other Israeli "mommy bloggers" who are, please feel free to have them contact me. I am interested in bringing together mothers from all over the world: we may not share the same faith or culture or political views, but we are all mothers. From that commonality, I hope that we can come to an understanding about what is happening and bring awareness to the atrocities being committed all around. I cannot sit by any longer and watch innocent families be destroyed. I need to put something out there to show my children that people are good. Since blogging is what I know, I am hoping to use this technology for something positive. Thank you for your consideration. Please be safe. I wish you peace.

to catarina said...

I say unleash the cruise missiles on selected targets in Syria and Iran with the forewarning that if they try to retaliate we'll wipe them off the face of the earth.
--
and how do you propose to wipe them off? These words are too big for you mouth, take it easy dear.

steve said...

I'll be interested to see how many even come close to agreeing with Catarina. That solution sounds too easy, by far. But then again, maybe that's just me. Hezbollah and Al Queda are branches of what used to be other terrorist groups who, when defeated, morphed into what they are today. What does that tell us? Is there some reason these people are consistently angry? I mean a literal reason, other than what the religious nuts come up with? If so, we should dam well listen. I mean, if they have formed in order to take over the world, then perhaps Catarina's suggestion makes some sense. A nice decade-long world wide war of attrition is what I think would happen, made even worse by the devastation of Iran and maybe Syria. Our 6 year olds now will fight that war, in this event. Think about that. The unleashing of nuclear warheads, a genie we don't need out of its bottle inasmuch as that is a real live WMD like no other and invites retaliation and the censure of whatever nation begins with one.
I don't have any real handy solutions. All I know is I want to see this stop, as soon as possible. Widening the war makes my skin crawl and shows no sign whatsoever of offering anything remotely close to a solution. It just exacerbates an already intolerable situation, IMO.

Maddy said...

How do you change peoples opinion, how do you alter thoughts?

I don't think you can.

I think the only way to get rid of a generation of hate is to educate the next generation that hate is wrong. In this case that won't happen.

Is World War III the answer? Hunt Islamic extremist down till there are none left, I don't think that's possible.

Ironically on August 6, 1945 the nuclear weapon Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima 61 years ago today. That had the desired effect and Japan surrendered, effectively ending WWII. In the years to follow Japan grew to be one of the world leaders in technology as did Germany. These two countries now work in harmony with their enemies. Tourists from all over the world travel to these countries and feel safe there.

Can this type of ending ever happen in the middle east? This hate is so different. I can't see a way of changing the situation.

janjo said...

I am just wondering and trying to understand some of the characters here. I am getting to a point that does some of the people here give a damn for other people’s lives at all? What makes you different to so called terrorists? You are proposing that let’s kill whoever does not think like us. Does it mean who ever do not think like me then he is a terrorist and I have to get rid of him?!

I just seem to not be able to understand what you mean by “desired effect” in Japan, So it was ok to kill so many hundreds of thousand Japanese! Wow that’s amazing. I am sure you love to see that probably happening in Iran and Syria!

I mean why not? Tehran has a 12 million population during day. Let’s nuke them and make them civilise afterwards. Actually we don’t need to since they all will be gone. I wonder why should they hate too? I mean they should realise that they only have to love you if they knew you gonna kill them all for not loving you!

I like it when you put Iran, Iraq (Saddam), HA and Al-Queda all at same level. It shows how shallow you are. The lack of your knowledge never let you find any solution to this war nor any other war! You see everything one sided and then generalise it.

You have no idea about Shia and Sunni. Sunni is what which is associated with radical Islam. And most of them don’t even consider Shias Muslim. I read it in another post here that Iran is radical Islam. What sort of nonsense is that? Do you even know what radical Islam is? Have you been to Iran? Do you know what sort of people they are? The whole idea about Shia is that it’s laid back and it is not as restrict as Sunni. And it is funny you call it radical.

Just because a president is an ultra conservative it does not mean that the whole nation is like him! Then all American should be same as Bush with a 65 IQ!

No dear, Iran is not radical Islam and Iranian are not Al-Queda. They have been suffered enough thanks to Saddam(s) and Al-Quedas and USA (who has backed them both initially).

There are conservative people in Iran as a party but they are only 15% of the people. But even they are not radical in the sense you refer to it. What makes people radical is lack of knowledge and even those are changing.

And In regards to HA, I am sure Iran has supported it but HA is independent and Iran’s support has nothing to do with its decision makings. If you really want some solution, stop just labelling anyone whose against you as a terrorist. In BBC and many other Medias they only say HA fighters. Even they refer to it as if the war is between two militaries. I don’t know what is HA’s agenda and I believe it is wrong but they are not simply just a terrorist group.

USA supported Saddam in Iraq-Iran War. An 8 years war which was forced to Iran. Few years after USA got rid of Saddam! It was politics. Right?! If Saddam was an evil he was even when he attacked Iran. 1 million of young Iranians got killed thanks to US support for Saddam! Did anyone raise a hand and object to it? NO. (Why should they like US after all) Maybe even Iran knows what HA is doing is wrong. But why should not they (Iran) think of their profit? Does politics just work for US? Is it only US which is allowed to support anyone and then condemn them whenever it suits them? Well I guess Iran has learnt a lot in that case from US.

If there is a standard it should works for every one. You can not have double standards for different people.

Sorry for making another long post, but what you see is not a whole picture. Same goes for the people in southern Lebanon and people in poor villages in Iran and Iraq. As long as the picture is not full the hate will be there.

I have posted here before and what I said above does not mean that I think HA is right, Or my views has changed. NO. I am against war and I think HA should have been disarmed. I am against Radicals and Terrorist and whatever which takes the people’s freedom.

IsrealiMom said...

Janjo, thank you for the post, I always enjoy reading your posts, and longer isn't a bad thing necessarily.

I do know the difference between Sunni and Shia, but when I use the term radical Islam, I mean radical Muslims of both schools, who want to see the region living by the law of Islam. I know quite a few Sunni Muslims here in Israel that are secular, modern and moderate.

No, Iran and HA are not Al Qaeida. Different strokes, I agree. But, to me the extreme Shi'ite are just as radical at the Wahhabists (sp?). Just because the two also hate each other, doesn't mean they don't pose a similar threat to Israel, and to the rest of the Westerm world.

I hope and believe that there are still sane people in this region. Of course, sane is my personal interpretation of things. To me this means people who value life, peace and prosperity, over religion and aggression. People who share my democratic and liberal values, who believe in equality to all, men and women, of any ethnic group and any faith (or lack of). I think the only hope for this region is for those people to get together and talk, communicate directly, via the Internet maybe, and work together towards a sane future for this region, where children can live in peace and not under the constant threat of bombs and rockets.

I know that there are many such people here in Israel, possibly even a majority here (though we do have our share of extremists as well). I hope I can find our coutnerparts in neighboring countries as well.

Sharon said...

Catarina, the US cannot get involved in this war other then to supply Israel with weapons and work on a cease fire resolution. Hezbollah did not attack the US. Though I am an "action, not words" kind of person myself, there cannot be action without thought. That is the way of the Islamofacist terrorists. This is not the US's fight...yet. I hope this conflict will not morph into our fight. I'd hate to see the draft implemented.

I do think the radical Islamists believe these wars that are presently occurring are part of their Holy Jihad. I don't understand their thinking. Why would killing civilians be considered a victory? What kind of god would reward a person for strapping explosives onto their body and boarding a bus full of innocent citizens, then blowing it all up? They will find the error of their thinking when it is to late for them...when they are burning in hell.

janjo, I can't speak for others, but you are right that I don't see the whole picture. But the piece of the picture that I do see repeats itself with each group. Al Queda attacks civilians, Hamas attacks civilians, Hezbollah attacks civilians. No, they don't accidentally hit civilians...they target them and then call it a victory when they make a kill...any kill. These groups are not a military that defend a country. They don't strategically take out military posts. They just kill. I have not spoken out against any country, except to say that the Lebanese government should rid themselves of Hezbollah. Any government that harbors terrorists is guilty by association. It is asking for trouble to allow a terrorist organization to occupy.

I am aware that there are people within Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Syria, that just want to live, raise their families, and have peace, just like I do.

Maddy said...

Janjo,

I am sorry if you misunderstood my meaning by "desired effect". What I was pointing out was that no amount of talking was going to stop the Japanese in the Pacific. Dropping two atomic bombs that killed millions of innocent people ended the war. Ending the war was the "desired effect", not killing millions. I also wanted to point out that I don't think any kind of bomb will fix the problems of the middle east. No big bomb will change peoples opinion.

I am all for finding a peaceful solution to this conflict that will stop the blood shed on all sides. And I too appreciate your passion.

steve said...

Great letter, janjo. I want to thank you, intensely. When we are as passionate about peace as we are about war, we might be OK. People with your disposition are the key to that success. The greatest minds and peacemakers in human history cried over the deaths of the innocent in thoughtless wars. They held these deaths personally, wondering how on earth they could change things. When a tear falls on the ground for this pain, something wonderful grows there. You stay like you are.

steve said...

Janjo mentioned: "Just because a president is an ultra conservative it does not mean that the whole nation is like him! Then all American should be same as Bush with a 65 IQ!"

Actually, Bush took up reading on his vacation recently. He is now up to 67 IQ! There may be hope!

catarina said...


What makes you different to so called terrorists? You are proposing that let’s kill whoever does not think like us.
,


What makes me so different? That's quite simple. I don't torture, behead or cut limbs off an individual if they don't believe in my God.

I'm not celebrating the deaths of innocent people in Lebanon, but if I may, I will strike a chord and remind you that the male population were not the only ones screaming (or whatever that annoying, high pitched screeching is that they do so well) while dancing in the streets; after their successful attack that killed over 3000 innocent men, women and children on 9/11 ~


Yes, and we did give Afghanistan it's weapons, but that was for strategic reasons ~ Why should we allow Russia to take Afghanistan? We shouldn't and we didn't. The US doesn't want irresponsible people with nuclear weapons. Why do you think they helped Saddam in the first place? Your enemy is my friend type of deal.

Do you think Iran or Iraq has a responsible government to procure such weapons? Or was I just hearing things when I heard Ahmadinejad state that the only success in winning this war would be to eliminate Israel and the United States?

Could you possibly get off your soap box long enough to look at the situation for what it is? We already have Germany, Russia, China. India, Pakistan, Israel, just to name a few with nukes and to be quite honest, I don't feel quite comfortable with Putin at the helm of Russia ~ he's ready to give away nuclear power to Iran ~

You throw around insults, but yet you seem to think that you're far superior because you're passionate about saving lives? How many lives does the Islamic states care to save? NONE, not even their own and certainly not yours or mine.

Let's also take a look at the many ways they kill others besides with missiles, etc ~

They're one of the largest drug trafficking organizations throughout the globe. That's just another insignificant thing though isn't it? Of course they're not putting a gun to someone's head to use it, but they one of the catalysts providing it and they sure are making a nice profit. Or does that count?

They're also bonding with other terrorist regimes, Indonesia, Chavez, et al', but yet because I don't think or agree with their beliefs or actions, I should be scolded by the likes of you?

They have countless sleeper cells here in the US and around the world that will attack on command; as they are nothing but mere brainwashed puppets of Iran. They've been counterfeiting US dollars for over a decade, but with all this evidence of the utmost hatred that Islam displays, peace treaties should be in order?

You think HA should be disarmed. That's laughable ~ (and you insult Bush's intelligence?) Disarming them will do absolutely nothing. They will find more arms, because in the long run, they do NOT want peace. They only want to wipe Israel and the US off the face of the earth. This evil is Islam. Not some radical fringe group, not some fanatical terrorist organization like al-Qaeda or Hamas. Islam itself. They are evil and it's people like you; that profess to know everything there is to know about Islam; have lost the ability to learn or understand that you can not talk to these monsters. Most of them are brainwashed by the age of two, but you should know that since you're so well read on all cultures within the ME. I suppose you know that they do teach their children that Israeli's are nothing but pigs and monkeys. If you do recall, a caricature of Condi Rice was drawn by a radical; as a black woman with a monkey in her belly ~ This not only showed his hatred of the US, but also his bigoted attitude and disdain for the Jews. Do you see the parallel?

I stated that it was only wishful thinking that the US get involved, but we won't because we don't have the manpower that we once had, not only due to being so spread out, but due to the extreme liberalism that's contaminated our country. Even if we brought back the draft, the pseudo men would be hightailing it up to Canada or hiding behind some other country's lines.


I also stated that if we were to bomb Iran and Syria ~ it would be on "selected targets" ~ I mentioned that we "should" wipe them (them being terrorists only) off the face of the earth if they retaliated. I would have no problem with that if we could get them, but that's damn near impossible, but we could make their lives very miserable and bomb these selected targets for months non-stop and make them submit. I could care less about those people, because they could care less about any one of us infidels. You're a fool to believe otherwise.

Remember the two things that Syria and Iran have in common are that both countries always have radical leaders that are either assassinated or overthrown. Never has either one of these countries maintained stability for any real length of time.

When the Shah presided over Iran, they were close allies with us, but unfortunately, the revolution took place and once again, the ugly face of Islam emerged and now more horrifying than ever before.

Iran's been terrorizing the United States; as well as many other countries well over two decades and the situation has escalated beyond belief. It's time to put a complete end to the situation and you're not going to do it with peace talks, treaties, cease fires, or anything else other than brute force; it's what they know and only respect. Why was Saddam so successful in keeping his country together? Fear rules in this region.

According to the Islamic Hadith and Quran, Muhammad was a terrorist; having established Islam through a series of armed raids against civilians. The most brutal and unjustified were against the Jewish communities of Qurayza and Khaybar.

For democracy within the Middle East to prevail, the culture, religion, and politics of the people must promote them. Islam does not. It never has and it never will. The evidence is overwhelming and undeniable. To ignore the obvious does not make us enlightened or compassionate. It will make us dead.

Lastly, I would love to believe that there are many good Muslims; but for those that are raised to believe that the Holocaust never happened puts a damper on my hopes of that.


Surprise, surprise, surprise ~
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2300772,00.html

steve said...

Catarina said: "What makes me so different? That's quite simple. I don't torture, behead or cut limbs off an individual if they don't believe in my God."

But face it, Catarina, your nation (and mine) has deemed the Geneva Conventions out of date and totured and killed many, and, unfortunatley, dear, whether you like it or not, in much the same ways as the people you profess to disgust you so. If you do not know this, then you might as well quit posting, because you follow selected and not real news. So much for them being beneath us.

"I will strike a chord and remind you that the male population were not the only ones screaming (or whatever that annoying, high pitched screeching is that they do so well) while dancing in the streets; after their successful attack that killed over 3000 innocent men, women and children on 9/11 ~"

The "chord" you strike tells us you watch Television. Wow. Being angry at people who get angry at you is what? Normal?

"Could you possibly get off your soap box long enough to look at the situation for what it is? "

Pot, Kettle, Black. Yawn, dear. Think about it.

"They're also bonding with other terrorist regimes, Indonesia, Chavez, et al', but yet because I don't think or agree with their beliefs or actions, I should be scolded by the likes of you?"

Maybe because he knows a ton more about the region than you? Just a guess.

Catarina, where the hell do you live? What are your news sources? I was going to point out other suppositions of yours, like where you try to inform us how "fleeting" power has been held in Syria and Iran. LMAO, what an ignorant thing to say. Assad's father was in power there for 40 years, dear. Is that stable enough for you? Your remember, back when the Syrians helped us in the Gulf War? Do you even know that? I bet money you don't realize how recently Syria was a literal American ally.

Sigh, the rest of your rant is as bad.

You need o tone down your venom dear, because it makes you look downright stupid. Sorry to be the one to inform you. Just because someone pissed in your breakfast cereal does not mean you take it out on others.


Catarina says: "This evil is Islam."

Now there is a problem solver, folks! Everyone who believes in Allah, the Koran or..essentially, not like Catarina, please dispose of yourselves. The big can on the right.

janjo said...

I am astounded with your angry outburst Catarina. I am thinking all sorts of questions. Like how old you are, how many places you have visited apart form US and what you do in life to give you such a view like that? I can not make much out of your name either, since it seems more like Cat + Arena. Well the site you link to it says that at least. I have been to US few times and every time I tend to be with people instead of just visiting places because I like to learn from them. I like to see the differences and experience the truth myself. Actually I was in Chicago when it was last US election and that was when I learnt Bush IQ. I didn’t mean to insult. I am not sure if that’s an insult anyway but it was what I heard from people on street.

Anyway, I wanted to ask for your permission to use your comment in others blogs which I contribute to, because I think that’s a part of the picture which many can not see in middle east and Far East. And with that I mean your view towards them. Maybe if they know how they are represented they make more effort to correct it!

I am not going to comment on what you said because you have pointed at so many things which are far from being truth and explaining all of them could become as thick as a book rather than a comment.

And I also think that Steve’s comment is saying everything that I could want to say but only much better than me. What I can do is to offer you some books, news articles and more books if you have some spare time to read.

I don’t know why you think I ever said I am right! Why it always have to be right and wrong?! Have you seen rainbows? Can tell when one colour changes into another? Is there a fine line?

I am sorry if I get disturb and miserable when I hear about people getting killed cuz of wars or dieing from poverty. But if you pay a bit more attention to my previous posts, in most of them I said at the end that maybe I am wrong!

Have you seen HSBC adverts? Have you seen different believes in different cultures? In west when some one dies most of people wear black in the funeral. In east (e.g. India) every one wears white. Can you tell me which one is wrong? How can you have such a fine line of being wrong and right? It seems everything against what you are presenting as US is wrong.

Well I suggest to you to look at the meaning of fascism in the dictionary. That might help. And I leave you the link for fascism to save you some time.

And saying “Muhammad was a terrorist; having established Islam through a series of armed raids against civilians.” Is as true as saying “that the Holocaust never happened”. I am not sure if the people say these things would claim them as part of the freedom of speech! In that case spare me from this freedom.

If you were said that the problem is religion then I could agree with you. But I can show you that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all same, coming from Abraham. Guess what, they even celebrate birth of Christ in Iran. And that’s from my personal experience when I was there and celebrating it 10 years ago.

And last not least, in couple of decades or more these things will be history. We will be more united as humans in coming years because we are putting ourselves in more dangers. Irony is when we have same enemy we become united.

Have you heard of climate change and global warming? Did you know that The US produces about 30 percent of global carbon dioxide emissions from burning fossil fuels. I am sure nuking couple of place is not gonna harm that much anyway. Maybe it just gonna shift the time a bit earlier for whatever which is going to happen.

Sooner or later people of earth will face the consequences of what we could stop it from happening. Don’t worry it is not gonna kill everyone. But it will kill enough to make the whole planet a disaster place. When that happens the meaning of terrorism might change with it too. It is hard to see something coming and not doing anything for the sake of some individual’s (few in compare to the all people living now and later) benefits at a specific (present) time disregarding everyone else in all times.

catarina said...


But face it, Catarina, your nation (and mine) has deemed the Geneva Conventions out of date and tortured and killed many, and, unfortunatley, dear, whether you like it or not, in much the same ways as the people you profess to disgust you so. If you do not know this, then you might as well quit posting, because you follow selected and not real news. So much for them being beneath us.

No, you're simplistic twist you put on my statement is as liberal as it gets Steve. I don't do MSM ~ I find it quite one sided. I like to read online news from various sources and then draw my conclusions from there. The "chord" you strike tells us you watch Television. Wow. Being angry at people who get angry at you is what? Normal? So you think that 9/11 was a green light for the bombing and then celbrating the deaths? Great Steve!
Maybe because he knows a ton more about the region than you? Just a guess. Well, you're guess is wrong. Maybe their hate for democracy is much stronger than you seem to realize.

Where I live and any other personal information about me is none of your business; however, to call me ignorant or stupid about my comments regarding Iran or Syria's stability is lame. You're going to state that a 40 year stint of stability after thousands of years in existence is not fleeting? Now that's hilarious.
You're no Ivy League student Steve. ~ Your snide little remarks only show that we disagree and that's fine. I would like to be able to disagree in peace without fear of someone cutting off my head. Thank God I can do that where I reside.

Jango~ I don't see why you're astounded about my comments. I already disclosed that I will not give out my personal information, but I will say that I was born in Italy, but now an American.
Actually I was in Chicago when it was last US election and that was when I learnt Bush IQ. I didn’t mean to insult. I am not sure if that’s an insult anyway but it was what I heard from people on street.
So, instead of trying to communicate with various groups within our society, you hear something off the street and take it as face value? Why would you do that? I do not belong to the Bush fan club. I am my own thinker, but there's a lot of good things this President has done regardless if I don't agree with him on many issues.

jango, I don't think anything I say will change the posture of anyone in any Islam state~ that is highly unlikely. So, the answer to your question to quote me, is a resounding "NO", however, I can't stop you from posting it.
And I also think that Steve’s comment is saying everything that I could want to say but only much better than me. What I can do is to offer you some books, news articles and more books if you have some spare time to read.
Actually, I think your comments are worth looking into; Steve spews nothing but venom towards me.

You've made a lot of comments that I do not wish to reply to either jango ~ I did and I'm now labeled a fascist because I don't think like both of you? No, I am not a fascist, far from it, however I do believe I can see reality and I don't look through rose colored glasses.
I don’t know why you think I ever said I am right! Why it always have to be right and wrong?! Have you seen rainbows? Can tell when one colour changes into another? Is there a fine line?
I stated that because of your previous posts within this blog. Your outrage to all of us "characters" for stating what we've posted without totally understand why or without asking questions first.
What I can do is to offer you some books, news articles and more books if you have some spare time to read. Please tell me why you seem to think that your books are better than my sources? I will read an article or book someone suggests if it will enable me to see something in a better light, but so far, no one's produced any such material.

I am sorry if I get disturb and miserable when I hear about people getting killed cuz of wars or dieing from poverty. But if you pay a bit more attention to my previous posts, in most of them I said at the end that maybe I am wrong! Why should you be sorry? I am very upset because innocent people are losing their lives and it is due to power, greed and religion.

Have you seen HSBC adverts? Yes, I have as a matter of fact I am extremely familiar with them ~ http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefings/hsbc_ukplc.pdf
Have you seen different believes in different cultures? In west when some one dies most of people wear black in the funeral. In east (e.g. India) every one wears white. Can you tell me which one is wrong? Yes, I've lived in different cultures, but not in the ME ~
How can you have such a fine line of being wrong and right? I don't and I truly think it's difficult to point that out online; as it can be overwhelming to get your point across in just one sentence at times. Perhaps it takes more than two-three posts, maybe more, but without seeing someone's inflections etc ~ words written can be interpreted in many ways. That's why it's very unhealthy to get into deep conversations such as this. It seems everything against what you are presenting as US is wrong.
I am only stating what I believe through the many books I read about Iran and other Islamic States. I have never lived there. However, I do know this war was unprovoked by Israel and the Islamic Fascist regime wants nothing more than to wipe them out. I'm not the only one that comprehends this. It's news around the world. I don't understand why my feelings towards these people should be anything other than anger, so how is that not representative of the US? I do feel that most people are disgusted with terrorists regardless from US or other countries.
Well I suggest to you to look at the meaning of fascism in the dictionary. That might help. And I leave you the link for fascism to save you some time.
Thanks, but I'm fully aware of the definition; although that may be a dig from you to me; which is totally fine by me jango.
If you were said that the problem is religion then I could agree with you. I do say it's partly religion ~ I don't know why that's questionable.
But I can show you that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all same, coming from Abraham. Guess what, they even celebrate birth of Christ in Iran. And that’s from my personal experience when I was there and celebrating it 10 years ago.

That's interesting. I just Googled that and found nothing of the sort other than Christian Iranians celebrating the birth of Christ, but I understand that their are Christians in Islamic states (nothing new to me); albeit not many, but there are nonetheless.
I am sure nuking couple of place is not gonna harm that much anyway. I never mentioned that we should nuke anyone.
Don’t worry it is not gonna kill everyone. But it will kill enough to make the whole planet a disaster place. When that happens the meaning of terrorism might change with it too. I have no doubt about that.

Since you inquired about what sources (authors) I've read, here are some just to name a few I have read as within the last few months ~

Kenneth Timmerman
Robert Spencer
Seyyed Vali Reza Nasr
Raphael Israeli
Oriana Fallaci

There are quite a bit more, but this should suffice.

steve said...

Catarina fumes: "No, you're simplistic twist you put on my statement is as liberal as it gets Steve. I don't do MSM ~ I find it quite one sided. I like to read online news from various sources and then draw my conclusions from there"

Ah, I see, why not address the issue, Catarina?.......you know, the Geneva Convention violations? But, no, you give away the fact that this is all something personal to you, you know, all those asshole Hezbollahs and the countries we are supposed to bomb into the Stone Age because they interfere with your world view. Where you get the news (you still have not said). You have twisted and entire thread into your own personal rant and it is disgusting to view.
I spend time now and then cleaning up after right wingers like you. Your views remind people of facist views, dear, thus Janjo's response and link. This will no doubt surprise you. Did you think Janjo was kidding when he mentioned he used your comments as a fearful example of how some Americans think? Are you proud of that? You need to look and apply the term "chickenhawk" to yourself, it appears. Look it up. The only good aspect of it, and I hope you are reading this, Janjo, is that the hubris of the right is about done. There incredible thickness and their feeling of Empire and superiority, (and for the most mysterious of reasons) are just about finished. I am being straight here.
The ulitmate irony is how, in America, it has become fashionable for people who shirked war time duties during conflicts of the past, now cheerlead mightily over invading other countries unilaterally and making or promising war everywhere else, while those who, ironically, served admirably in the wars those guys evaded, advocate more reasoned responses. Not only that, but reality has been so twisted that those who served are villified as mtraitors, like John Kerry and John Murtha, see Max McClellenad, that one was really terrific, the paraplegic traitor, lol. Only in America can a person like this, Catarina, spread the venom she uses and call it patriotic.

steve said...

I won't be responding to the Catarina posts from here on. We have taken an impersonal and fascinating blog site and made it the typical personal vendetta sort of direction all so coomon and maybe illustative of why things are in the mess they are, eslewhere as well.
Out of respect to Annette, Catarina, fire away, Babe. Since I did not bother finishing either of your other posts, expect even less. They are so long, one needs a lunch, anyway. Enjoy.

janjo said...

Did I ever mention it here that I am an Iranian? Well I have not been living there for many years now, about 10 but I still proudly say that I am a Persian. Well does that make me a terrorist? Actually you (Catarian) said that “They have countless sleeper cells here in the US and around the world … ” well I don’t want even go further with your comment since it is not just insulting but it is to me a crime by you to label so many like me to please yourself. but at least I can assure you nothing can happen to you over the internet. So don’t get scared dear and don’t run off. You can read on.

You seem to misunderstand me when I say I am thinking of the so called personal questions. I didn’t ask them so you would answer me. No, I was just thinking loud that where your view is coming from. But anyway, sorry if it came cross wrong.

In regards to Bush, I still don’t think it was an insult. He has the lowest IQ among all US presidents and I did not say that’s a bad thing. I just said it is wrong to generalise. However I think the truth is that his IQ is 91 but many jock about it as 65. Anyways if you like you can google this one and find it for yourself.

On your books I just quote what Washington post book world review was in regards to your resources.
“Authors such as Timmerman and Jerome R. Corsi (who wrote the similarly irresponsible Atomic Iran: How the Terrorist Regime Bought the Bomb and American Politicians) present their ideology as self-evident verity and their assumptions as incontrovertible facts. The reality remains that Iran does present serious challenges to American interests; a quarter-century after the Iranian Revolution ruptured U.S.-Iranian relations, the United States is still profoundly ill-equipped to understand Iran, much less effectively address those challenges.”

Anyway I am not going to say anything about your resources since I have read some of their books and as I said before, these books help me to understand how others can see us from outside.

But there are other books which may help you to understand what it means to be an Iranian and living there. I try to give some name out and you may read some of them. I am going to give you resources of Iranian like me who criticise what’s happening in my country and try to improve it, but in no ways it means giving any right to US to intervene.

Actually one day if you travel to Middle East, to different places you will find out that Iranians as a nation are pro-west. Among all Muslim countries in ME Iran has the most pro-west nation while it still is anti US administration. Same people mourns for American deaths. Did ever your resources told you about candle power?

I don’t know how old you are, but things have history. They didn’t started 4 weeks ago when HA assaults happened and it didn’t started 27 years ago when the 1979 revolution happened.

Before I go further, I would tell you why I was astound about your comment. You said “and we did give Afghanistan it's weapons, but that was for strategic reasons” I like that. Simply US does not give damn about other nations. It is interests. Your interests.

And guess what there have been so many interests which have caused harm to my people. Saddam was only one of them. Have you ever read any of these articles.
“How the United States Destroyed Democracy in Iran in 1953”

or

50 Years After the CIA’s First Overthrow of a Democratically Elected Foreign Government

It was your interests to destroy it back then and it’s your interests to liberate Iraq (my next door) today and maybe me tomorrow. I still don’t understand who gave US the permission to have any interest in my country. Is it because we have oil? So it started back then and in 1979 eventually people of Iran (I say it again people) did a revolution which made Iran republic and also Islamic.

The 1979 revolution was one the most peaceful revolutions in the whole history. Have you read on the French one? Or German? There were different parties in the revolution but thanks to US interests, Saddam attacked Iran. A war which gave the opportunity to the conservative party to take the lead and put a hold on every one else just because the country was at war. Well we did fight a meaningless war for 8 years for you interests. Because back in 1979 US still didn’t think that Iran should have had a democracy. Because simply US does not want people to decide for themselves in my country.

After all these years, today suddenly USA became so worried about democracy in Iran. A country with hidden prisons all over the world has become worried about Human Rights in Iran. Shame on you.

Human rights and USA. They are two extreme to many people in Iran. I can be worried for human rights in Iran, I as a person who have friends who are behind bars because of their thoughts. Not you with your interests. Soon when you have achieved your interests you will forget about my human rights. I guess there many news that you miss out on them. Have you seen this one?

Troops 'took turns' to rape Iraqi


That’s what we see as human rights you are offering. Gee thanks.
But to give you more to read on human rights in Iran I give you this book. I don’t need to hide it I want to make it better so I let the world know!
Iran Awakening: A Memoir of Revolution and Hope
You know it is simple case that we realised that US never would have any interests to help us as a nation. And it is upon Iranians to experience and achieve democracy. We don’t hate you but simply we don’t trust you. And we are sure about that.

If you walk in Tehran’s street and talk to people, they would tell you that there will be no war. We don’t want war. And government knows that people of Iran never would support them if they attack any other country but same government knows it well that if US attacks Iran, people will defend it to the last drop of their blood. It is not because they are Shiia or Muslim or whatever. No, simply because they are Persian and they are living in a land that they have lived there for past 3000 years and they have defended it all the way through. Believe me you are not worst than Moguls.

It might be easy for USA to say be with us or against us and relies on the fact of being a super power. But it does not really scare people of a land who have built their values days before Christianity or Islam come to existence.

Meanwhile I also suggest you to read these two books as well,
Persian Mirrors: The Elusive Face of Iran

And
We Are Iran

Maybe I should suggest some pro Islamic republic books as well, lol, but I don’t think you would have the time ;) to read them.

So anyway to sum it up, I tell you to read more and don’t hate us because we know you are not our friends but we like to have relations with you. We love peace because we know it well that it is only through peace that we can evolve to a better democracy.

And if your are worried because of our president I have to tell you that he is an all talk no walk man.

There is a fact that you are missing. 65% of Iran population went to vote in last presidential election. Much higher than USA.

No one did force them to vote but they felt it is the right way forward. The candidates were not that good since many of them were eliminated but the truth is even that many candidates were eliminated from being in election still people went out and voted.

Many voted and this Iranian equivalent of Bush came to power. He claimed things to do but he has not done them yet. What he is doing is trying to put foreign pressure on Iran to not let critics get louder which might take him off the power before next election. But simply you don’t see that.

I may be more British today as an Iranian but it dose not change the fact that I know and feel about the people who are living there. I may never go back to live there but I can understand their miss-trust.

I am some one who loves two nations. I don’t see the world with lines but more as one. Yes my culture is coming from there and I am passionate about it but my love ones are here and are British. I never can choose between them but I can tell both sides that they are same people in two different locations. I can tell them not listen the nonsense of media and government. and I can tell them that I have lived with bothe of them I have fell in love each time. And I know where ever I go same people would be there.

I hope for peace and nothing else.
Bless you all and sorry for another long post.

And more articles!
From Tehran to Washington, Demagogues Rule

Iranian People

catarina said...

janjo ~ first, let's set the record straight; I am not afraid to discuss anything with you. As a matter of fact, I welcome it.

No, I did not know you were an Iranian ~
well I don’t want even go further with your comment since it is not just insulting but it is to me a crime by you to label so many like me to please yourself. Why would you say that I am putting everyone that's an Iranian in one group? I never stated that; not once. If you interpretted that way, then I can see why you are very upset, but I did not.
However I think the truth is that his IQ is 91 but many jock about it as 65. Anyways if you like you can google this one and find it for yourself.
Just for my own curiosity, I have Googled it and came up with this ~ I am not at all impressed with high IQ's, but his is not as bad as you seem to think ~ there are men and women with much higher IQ's that have no common sense whatsoever, so really, why people make such a big deal over this is beyond me.

Please, take a moment to read this. It's from the New York Times, a very liberal press; (they hate Bush ~ so I feel this is a fair source) ~ I'm sure you're familiar with them. You may have to register, but it will only take a moment and it's free.

Bush's IQ

janjo ~ I want to address the rest of your post, but I can not this evening; however; I see that you've put a lot of time to post and to provide these links; I appreciate that. I will reply to each of your statements later on tonite or tomorrow ~

janjo said...

I appreciate your time and effort catrina. Maybe I am wrong and New York time’s call the other report (which can be find here) hoax is correct.
and something to read as well:
George W. Bush: "God Told Me To Veto Anti-Torture Bill"

And Steve I appreciate your view. I really have tried to present a picture of people who don’t have much of voice. And I do feel bad to miss-use what has been created here. I tried to apologise earlier in another post.

Steve, also I wanted to tell you that I just learnt 3 weeks ago (through wikipedia) that John Kerry was in Vietnam(I think I am recalling it correctly) war and I was amazed how he was criticised (If I can recall it properly) over his view towards security and war on terror in election! I can not remember the actual thing but at the election I was following the news and reading on Kerry and he seemed so peaceful that I could not imagine that he could have ever been in a war. I appreciated him back then but now I even do it more knowing what he has been through.

steve said...

Janjo, Kerry is a legitimate hero. He was wounded three times in 4 months, and earned a high medal for bravery. The other two I mentioned have also been raped by electoral politics and outright lies, among the worst-ever political ploys in American history and a low point in political morality, bought and paid for gratefully by Republican politicians and backers. John Murtha and Mac Cleland, who lost both legs in Viet Nam are also victims of strident lies from the Right, Google them. Murtha is even current....he is running for office again in Pennsylvania this year. Watch how it develops, if you want to see what I am referring to. They are gearing up, hot and heavy.
There are lots of Iranians here where I live. They are progressive, modern people with a grwat sense of humor who are dismayed and confused by what's going on. America seeks simplistic answers instead of dialogue, right now. Like isay, I hope the current crew take their lies and mean-spirited foreign policy and get booted out thuis Noivemeber. Unfortunately for The Shrub (Bush, junior), he has to stay around and try and fix the awful mess he and his one-party situaion have caused. He won't of course and, the fact is, he may be impeached in disgrace. These wars are but a glimmer of his wrongdoings. His IQ, by the way, is perfect for those so much smarter around him who manipulate him in every way. He is actually a small part of the problem. Sigh, as i said, he'll be gone soon.

IsrealiMom said...

A fascinating discussion, actually. I have learned a lot here. Janjo, can you email me please? israelimom@gmail.com - I want to run an idea by you :)

Ian the Rebel Jew Roth said...

Shalom and Howdy!

Catarina is spot on with Her postings. I couldnt agree more with Her.

This war was started by hezbollah and Israel has evry right to Defend Her People. Israels only desire is to live in peace.
Those crazy muslims and their Qur’an dont want peace they want Israel destroyed along with Her Friends. If You think I'm telling a lie read the unholy Qur’an for yourself.

I'll even give You a few quotes from its pages.

Qur’an:9:5

Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

Qur’an:9:29

Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission

This tax is called the Jizyah

Qur’an:8:39

Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.

Qur’an:8:39

So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).

So much for the peace of islam.

Lets move onto those 78 virgins in jinah. Did You know these virgins are 80 feet tall with mile wide butts ?

I dont know about the rest of You but if I saw something like that it would cause me great fear. Burkazilla!

Now Steve You said Our 6 year olds would be fighting the war.

Did You know that The messenger
thier prophet muhammad married a 6 year old child ? She was 9 when he took her to his bed.

Let us now return to the unholy text of islam and see what it says about Jews and Christians. I find it odd how much it sounds like that coming from the leftwingers in America and much of the world today.

Ishaq:240

The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people.

Qur’an 33:26

Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.

Ishaq:524

We cannot accept the oaths of Jews. Their infidelity is so great they swear falsely.

Qur’an 5:17

Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.

Qur’an 5:51

Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.

Qur’an 5:82

You will find the Jews and disbelievers [defined as Christians in 5:73] the most vehement in hatred for the Muslims

janjo would you care to tell us what these mean ? If You tell me I must understand arabic before I can read the qu`ran I would ask You to check out this link.

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=60227&ak=null

Ian

catarina said...

janjo ~ I lost all my info last nite when my computer decided to shut off ~ I can't tell you how much work I put into my post, but I will do my best to address each comment that you ask and apologize for the delay ~

On your books I just quote what Washington post book world review was in regards to your resources.
“Authors such as Timmerman and Jerome R. Corsi (who wrote the similarly irresponsible Atomic Iran: How the Terrorist Regime Bought the Bomb and American Politicians) ....
Why is it that I see that a lot of your sources are all liberal biased~ why not other sources? I even gave you the NY Times link (which in all fairness is more likely to put saturate anyone with liberal views), that stated the SAT scores of Bush, his IQ which was established around the upper 120's but you didn't seem to care about that link or was it just that you wanted to show me where you got that info about the joke? Just confused here.

Also the other link that GWB stated that "God told him; etc ~ that's also liberal propoganda. It's just like when the left bloggers decided to create a little propaganda fun on GOOGLE ~ do you remember the "miserable failure" search? If you typed that into your GOOGLE search you'd wind up on GWB's site ~
Easily done ~ as a matter of fact, you can find resources on Snopes.com for more misinformation the left has put out there. I consider myself to be an independant. I don't think it's a good idea for anyone to smear someone purposely for fun. It only makes their party or whatever they stand for appear cowardly, bullies and incredibly desperate.

I'm also kinda stumped as why you'd thumb down Timmerman since he, along with Pete Rodman and some other guy Murvachik (I think sp); and a group of Iranians established the Foundation of Democracy in Iran. It's a group of Iranian Democrats (have you heard of them?) that are aiding Congress and the public informed about the oppressions you speak of later on in your post. Nevertheless, I will press on ~

the United States is still profoundly ill-equipped to understand Iran, much less effectively address those challenges.” We are ill equipped because of the hate that we see and read from the news, online, etc ~ I don't know any Iranians, only people from India ~ of which is my best friend and her family; I am her daughter's Godmother; and Pakistan, two families of which we are extremely close to mine. Both of which are not fans of Iran ~ go figure. So, with these resources, unless I actually go to Iran, I'm limited as to the knowledege I can procure.

Oh and I wanted to share this with you, because I think you'd appreciate it very much ~ at least I thought you would.
Wafa Sultan

Did ever your resources told you about candle power? No, as a matter of fact, I put up a tribute site for 9/11 victims and family's. I specifically looked for this information, but didn't come across it! I'm very sad to see that either it was blocked or perhaps it wasn't uploaded when I needed it. Thanks for the link ;)
Before I go further, I would tell you why I was astound about your comment. You said “and we did give Afghanistan it's weapons, but that was for strategic reasons” I like that. Simply US does not give damn about other nations. It is interests. Your interests.
I stated that because Afghan is stategically located. Do you think the US is going to allow Soviet Union (at that time) to take over another country in the ME? I didn't like the way they handled Afghanistan at all. Even though the US aided with weapons, they should've given more aid to rebuild.

Yes, I read the coup of 1953 ~ I'm not proud of that; the US has made severe mistakes. I don't have an answer as how to correct them.
Is it because we have oil? So it started back then and in 1979 eventually people of Iran (I say it again people) did a revolution which made Iran republic and also Islamic. Of course it is, I might have been born at nite, but not last nite. ALL PARTIES are involved janjo ~ don't let anyone kid you that the left are the rightous party of America and other countries", all that's just more BS; just like the right!

We need real leaders, but certainly I only see a few that could possibly be fair and just.

BTW ~ I also read 50 Years After the CIA’s First Overthrow of a Democratically Elected Foreign Government, again, we have to clean up the mess of our past leaders.

You speak of human rights, but it seems like Iran cares nothing of human rights either. I'm quite sure that doesn't hold true of many people that live there, just like those of us that do care here.

You may think I don't because I speak out against Hezbollah and Islamofacists, but this information is out there janjo and I didn't put it out there.
Have you seen this one?
Troops 'took turns' to rape Iraqi
Yes, I've read about it and this is under investigation now. If it is true and they will be tried, found guilty and hopefully pay the ultimate price; however, as you must know, innocent until proven guilty. That being said, we do have the death penalty. I personally am very undecided about this law. I feel it's barberic, but yet, what happened to the victims and their families can't be overlooked and they must have some type of justice. It's a hard call :(


Iran Awakening: A Memoir of Revolution and Hope
Thanks, I'll read that.
We don’t want war. And government knows that people of Iran never would support them if they attack any other country but same government knows it well that if US attacks Iran, people will defend it to the last drop of their blood. How could anyone blame them?
Many voted and this Iranian equivalent of Bush came to power. He claimed things to do but he has not done them yet. What he is doing is trying to put foreign pressure on Iran to not let critics get louder which might take him off the power before next election. But simply you don’t see that.
Honestly, he is quite scary to me. He doesn't seem that he wants a democracy, but dictatorship.

janjo ~ I have a meeting to get to and I have posted longer than I should, but I appreciate your love for both countries and I do understand you better now through this discussion ~

However, there's so much to digest. I have a lot of thinking to do.

Best wishes & Blessings ~

IsrealiMom said...

Ian, the Bible is just as full of these kind of laws as the Quran. I wouldn't go by the Quran alone trying to understand today's Muslim world. Sure, there are religious fanatics who may follow it literally, but not all Muslims are like that.

Frankly, I fear Jews and Christians that claim to follow the word of the Bible per se, just as much as their equivalents on the Muslim side.

Ian the Rebel Jew Roth said...

IsrealiMom said...
Ian, the Bible is just as full of these kind of laws as the Quran. I wouldn't go by the Quran alone trying to understand today's Muslim world. Sure, there are religious fanatics who may follow it literally, but not all Muslims are like that.

Frankly, I fear Jews and Christians that claim to follow the word of the Bible per se, just as much as their equivalents on the Muslim side.

My Dear Lady may Hashem Bless You and Us all.
I am not an Israeli Jew I am an American Jew.

I can find nothing in the Torah that tells me a Jew to smite muslim above the neck or cut off their fingertips. Nothing about laying in wait for them and harm them.

There is nothing in the Torah that requires Us to force them to pay a tax for not being Jews.

I fear this unholy alliance between islam and liberals.
Remember what the leftwing did to us in Geramny ?

I forgive this action but will never forget it. Remember the book of hitler is second only to the koran in sales in most islamic countries.

Better I should eat a porkchop than think these people as Friends.

Ian

janjo said...

To be honest with you I don’t speak Arabic. Our language is Persian. It is like the difference between German and English. In regards to Quran, well I have read the translation in Persian. As Israeli Mom said it, same sort of things can be find in any religion that’s why there are extremist in all of them. But also it is important to put things in context. Quran is kind of story telling and many of these things could be referring to something 1400 years ago. Anyway, I am not expert in that so I can not make much of comment. I prefer to keep quiet when I don’t know much on something.

I only tried to picture you normal people of a Muslim country for example Iranians. But as I said I only tried to draw a picture for you and nothing else and it is not the only picture and in no way complete.

Catarina, I suggest you read my other post again, I agreed with NYtimes, maybe it was not clear. And just to keep you busy with so called American mistakes, I send you one more of so many. It is another mistake which USA never apologised for it. I give you different sources to same story.
Iran Air 655: Operation Enduring Freedom?
Shooting Down Iran Air Flight 655
Iran Air Flight 655

To be honest with you we can argue on each one of these issues but I don’t think it is much of point to just argue. I have drawn you something which I thought might be helpful. That’s all.

Bless you all

catarina said...

To be honest with you we can argue on each one of these issues but I don’t think it is much of point to just argue. I have drawn you something which I thought might be helpful. That’s all.
I have no desire to argue with anyone.

I know about this incident. Much of what I remember of it was thrown under the rug. Once again, I can't apologize for them, just extremely horrific that such an incident has happpened; I can't explain it ~

I will ask if you happened to listen to Wafu Sultan's link I posted? What did you think of her message?


BTW ~ I did order Persion Mirrors and Iran Awakening and look forward to reading them. :)

Ian the Rebel Jew Roth said...

steve said...
I won't be responding to the Catarina posts from here on. We have taken an impersonal and fascinating blog site and made it the typical personal vendetta sort of direction all so coomon and maybe illustative of why things are in the mess they are, eslewhere as well.
Out of respect to Annette, Catarina, fire away, Babe. Since I did not bother finishing either of your other posts, expect even less. They are so long, one needs a lunch, anyway. Enjoy.

Could it be that Catarina made points about issues that dont fit into what You have been spoon fed by the extreme left ?

Ian

Ian the Rebel Jew Roth said...

the Geneva Convention violations?

The Convention does not apply to those fighting without a uniform.
They are terrorist and have no rights under the Conventions.

They show no mercy look at what they did to Nick Burg and many others.

ian

Ian the Rebel Jew Roth said...

janjo said...
To be honest with you I don’t speak Arabic. Our language is Persian. It is like the difference between German and English. In regards to Quran, well I have read the translation in Persian. As Israeli Mom said it, same sort of things can be find in any religion that’s why there are extremist in all of them. But also it is important to put things in context. Quran is kind of story telling and many of these things could be referring to something 1400 years ago. Anyway, I am not expert in that so I can not make much of comment. I prefer to keep quiet when I don’t know much on something.

When was the last time a Jew or Christian blew him or herself up killing others in the name of G_D ?

I know in the past things were done in the Name of G_D and Jesus.
Those things took places a few hundred years ago. I recall reading yesterday about a muslim blowing himself up in Iraq.

IsrealiMom said...

Ian said: When was the last time a Jew or Christian blew him or herself up killing others in the name of G_D ?

I agree that the suicide bombers are something else. That said, people have been killing and dying for their God all the time, and still are. Christians, Jews, others as well. Glad you mentioned the historical context though. Historically, there have been many many times where Jews and Christians killed and died for their faith, mainly killed, I think. The crusaders and the spanish inquisition ring any bells? ;) Sure, so they haven't done so recently, but it goes to show you this isn't something inherent in a certain religion, it's more of a cultural phenomenon, related to a certain point in time. It could change with Muslims as well.

Ian the Rebel Jew Roth said...

IsrealiMom said...
Ian said: When was the last time a Jew or Christian blew him or herself up killing others in the name of G_D ?

I agree that the suicide bombers are something else. That said, people have been killing and dying for their God all the time, and still are. Christians, Jews, others as well. Glad you mentioned the historical context though. Historically, there have been many many times where Jews and Christians killed and died for their faith, mainly killed, I think. The crusaders and the spanish inquisition ring any bells? ;) Sure, so they haven't done so recently, but it goes to show you this isn't something inherent in a certain religion, it's more of a cultural phenomenon, related to a certain point in time. It could change with Muslims as well.

The Crusades and inquisition were very bad things Cant get around that.

That mindset died out long ago.
The Crusades were in answer to islamics killing Christians trying to visit the Holy Lands.

Muslims did invade Spain and took part in crimes in much the same way as the inquisition.

Ian

catarina said...

Just saw this, but had to answer ~
I spend time now and then cleaning up after right wingers like you. Oh, so you're the designated maintenance man of the left wing extreme! I'm so impressed you have a function here on earth.

Your views remind people of facist views, dear, thus Janjo's response and link.
Really, well then tell that to London this today while their on red alert due to "Gee, terrorists", I wonder why they would do such a thing???
NOW will the Michael Moores and suchlike take this war on terrorism seriously?

I believe those of us who believe in our fight, and believe that a major $hit is about to happen again on our shores, the time is nigh. My question is how did we keep the New York Times from tipping the terrorists off to this investigation? :) Steve. you don't work there yet do you?
This will no doubt surprise you. Did you think Janjo was kidding when he mentioned he used your comments as a fearful example of how some Americans think? Are you proud of that? Dude, get a grip. I could care less. People all over the world hate us, do you think that my comment's going to change world opinion or better yet, what about our opinions of them? Talk about about me spewing venom? LOL
You need to look and apply the term "chickenhawk" to yourself, it appears. Look it up.
Look up "primate" ~ you fit quite well amongst that group since you rub elbows with Hezbollah ~ Why not just go over there and play Jihad Joe?

~ I'm very happy being a hawk. I'm proud of who I am and what I believe in and you can take Murtha and all the cut and run guys all day long! Oh, I am so unimpressed with him, Kerry and all your favorites.

I think the term chicken is even too brave for the likes of you.

Now, I'm definitely over your BS and won't be replying or reading your nonsense.

BTW ~ glad Ian staightened you out on the Geneva Convention ~ LOL! Keep on cleanin' up the mess, you're doing an OUTSTANDING JOB!

Ian the Rebel Jew Roth said...

Folks I'm telling You I love that Catarina! I am waiting to read the replies to Her. Steve You sending off copies to kerry teddy bilary and air amerika to see how to reply here ?

janjo said...

 Danger!! Another long comment

Qur’an:9:5

Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

---

I did some search and I found the whole Surrah 9 which I think you are referring to. You can read the whole Surrah 9 Repentance, Dispensation and judge it for yourself.( I suggest you read number 4 and then 5) If you like I can do same thing for rest of your comment referring to other Suurahs.

I suggest you read another set of comments which took place not long time ago over a vide clip here. What I was trying to say back then was, we should ask why for many things which are happening! When we find the cause then we can solve the problem.

You may say the cause is simply Islam. It is hard for me to accept that. I agree that religion is a problem but not just one of them. There is about 1 billion (or maybe more) Muslim around the word. You may know many of them in your society. You refer to them with names x and y. You never say someone is a good person because he is Muslim but you do other way round. If some one does something wrong and if he is Muslim then you say oh it is because he was Muslim.

Have you came cross this news which happened not long time ago? Here are two links for an article and a video clip of bbc covering the event.

Israelis Attack Church of the Annunciation

And
See the protests in Nazareth

Can you tell me how it would have been reported if it was 2-3 Muslims performing such attack?!

As Israeli Mom said, it is something that could change. And I think it will change sooner or later for Muslims to be more moderate. What percentage of Muslim is extremist? It is not much.

Maybe I misunderstand your comments but it seems that you (this you is not to all) are blaming one or another. Government are doing that to justify their actions. But we are not government. We are simple people which are not involved in politics (thank goodness). We don’t need to blame each other to be able to communicate. We don’t need to destroy each other verbally either.
It makes me sick that everyday I check different blogs and one group produce evidence that it’s Muslim or HA fault for what’s happening now and the other group provide evidence that it’s Israel fault. The funny thing is when you read each blog, when you watch each video clip it seems so convincing. And it seems so appropriate to accuse some one else.

But what happens if we try to not find the guilty one but try to find a solution. Try to understand why things are happening this way. So many whys! For a change lets not justify things. Lets not say it’s this and that fault that so many innocent people got killed. Let’s say what it is that we all can do to stop more people from getting hurt?

One day government were only representative of a country and to judge a country it was to look at its government. But things are changing and I am so thankful because of it. In near future it will be people representing a country instead of government being only representatives.

One day if I wanted to like or dislike an Israeli I had to watch the state tv and I didn’t have much of choice, it was the presenter decision to allow me to like or dislike the Israeli person. The only picture I would have had was Israeli soldiers shooting at disarmed people. To me when I was a kid Israel was an army rather than a state.

Today I don’t need to watch TV to decide on if I am going to like an Israeli or not. Today an Israeli is not just some picture but it is some one with name and character. Today I can talk to her and I can feel her day to day life and just see how similar it can be to mine. Today I can decide for myself if I like her or dislike her. Is not that something that we need to work towards it?

I am a very normal person. an average person of the society and I have managed to live between different people with different cultures and enjoyed it and loved it all the way through. If I have lived this way then anyone could do so. and if we don’t, it is not because it is not possible or one culture or religion is not good! It is just we chose not to!

When you are at war you can not ask these questions, simply because you have to support your troops and soldiers. I remember the 8 years war between Iran and Iraq. So many people got killed and no one asked why. Not many years after the war, people at both sides of the border are getting along and they whisper quietly that what I was fighting against? My next door neighbour? But he is just like me! How can we like each other now when we were killing each other not long ago?! And you know what the shame is? Same people can be manipulated again to hate each other and forget all the good things that they have shared.

Bless you all

IsrealiMom said...

Janjo, I enjoyed reading your comment as always. I have to say though, that incident in Nazareth isn't very relevant. These people were mentally disturbed. One of them was Christian (the man's wife). I am not sure what agenda they had, if any. They were taken for psychiatric observation on the spot, not even arrested, which usually mean it was crystal clear to the cops that they were not right in the head.

Ian the Rebel Jew Roth said...

janjo for evry post You make about a Christian or Fellow Jew taking part in some attack on islamics I can post 10 or more of muslims doing far more harm to people in the name of allah.

Let me ask You a question. Did You dance in the streets on 9/11 ?

Many of Your brothers and sisters did. I have never danced or gave candies to children or shot hundreds of rounds in the air when muslims have died.

Ian

Ian the Rebel Jew Roth said...

IsrealiMom said...
Janjo, I enjoyed reading your comment as always. I have to say though, that incident in Nazareth isn't very relevant. These people were mentally disturbed. One of them was Christian (the man's wife). I am not sure what agenda they had, if any. They were taken for psychiatric observation on the spot, not even arrested, which usually mean it was crystal clear to the cops that they were not right in the head.

7:46 AM


You are 100% right here

Ian

catarina said...

janjo ~ you never remarked on that link I posted re: Nafu Sultan, but I extend you the courtesy of reading and researching your replies. Why can't you reciprocate? I only asked that you listen and then reply on her message.

I also wanted to make another reply on your comment that you made about the Ahmadinejad. You stated that he was all talk and no walk and then you went on to state that the Iranian people had such a higher turnout for voting, which is not true at all. I dont know where you got your statistics, but they're wrong.

If Iran is so democratic and voted for him and he's just a BS artist why would you want anyone like him representing you? Seems to me like that's an extremely cavalier attitude presented by the Iranians if they think their leader's ruling with an iron tongue lol ~ I would want someone that has some action behind thier words.

The only thing this man has is an army of wackjobs that will blow themselves up on command; while killing the infidels that don't believe in ISALM and continually tries to bullshit the rest of the world that they only want nuclear energy. Ya know, if you really think I or the masses of the US or any other country other than Russia or China (which are butt buddies with him) believe that, I feel so sorry for you.

Did you read this interview? This guy's doing us a phenomonal favor with his replies. He's a dangerous man with a very evil mind.

How did you feel when you found that the Islamofacists terrorist were second/third generation Brits originating from Pakistan?

I don't want to argue or debate in an ugly fashion, but I do believe there's a lot of dialogue that you post that displays denial regarding Iran.

steve said...

The ever-lovely and soft-spoken Catarina opines: "I think the term chicken is even too brave for the likes of you."

LOL, is that all you got?

I leave town for a week and Catrina sprouts herself a true believer! Thus emboldened, she rips out the heart of genuine heroes who served to allow her to spew her various opinions. Nice respect, gal. You're not even one of a kind..........gratitude and respect went away long ago, did they not? Welcome to the mob. Sigh.

steve said...

Cararina posted a common enough plaint one hears which is so off base as to be absurd......and Ian chimed in later, backing her play: "NOW will the Michael Moores and suchlike take this war on terrorism seriously?"

I don't think anyone, left or right does not see the threat inherent in the radical Muslims. They managed to blow up the World trade Center, started a war in Lebanon, etc, etc. It is not that anyone fears them less than anyone else, frankly. We all all on the same page and you have stooped top electioneering politics to inform you about the attitudes and concepts of the left..........whcih is a dam fuzzy territory at best, anyway.
Tacticly, I supported our entry into Afghanistan. Indeed, I thought we should have stuck around and finished the job but Bush Junior had other ideas, taking away our focus from there, allowing it to become the narco-state I predicted it would and taking on this absurd adventure in Iraq.
It's an American trait nowadays, this spinning of truth and reality to fit an election campaign. Which is all the Bush people have done since they got into office, connive and use drastic and obscene methods, including sacrificing our prinicples and people to get re-elected. Congratulations on swallowing all that, you guys.